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BFD3 - Is anyone else having a simply awful user experience?

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daleBFD
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:15 am

BFD3 - Is anyone else having a simply awful user experience?

Postby daleBFD » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:10 pm

I'm a long time BFD user since the days of v1. V1 wasn't bad and I actually made music with it. BFD2 came along and I spent most of my waking hours trying to port the tracks over. After investing so much time in BFD I knew I'd been locked into a sub-standard product that was sucking the creative hours from me just dealing with the shortcomings of the product, spending time on forums looking for answers to problems, struggling with key maps that just wouldn't stick and continuously applying patches as they came available.

Having recently upgraded to PT11, I had two options. Either finally abandon BFD entirely, lose all the previous work and spend countless hours re-doing the drum tracks on completed work, or use some Xmas gift money and upgrade to BFD3.

I read reviews, looked the demo and thought it wasn't bad, so went for the upgrade. What a mistake that was.

The installation process was clunky to say the least. Now I have the thing installed (after a few hours of debugging why the audio content isn't loaded during installation), I am left with an app that has a constant echo on every drum hit, constant digital overloading regardless of gain settings, BFD2 kits that simply won't load and an unresponsive support ticket system. The only thing that actually worked was the license authorization.

Contrast this with my recent upgrade from Reason 4 to Reason 7 (yes, 3 product versions jumped in one go). It just worked. Flawlessly. More importantly it Did What You Would Expect.

Now I'm very familiar with BFD overall. I also write complex distributed software for a living and have been working with Pro Tools since version 6. I am not a 'power user', but I'm very experienced. If I am having these types of issues with a pretty simple setup, what are other people going through?

I need to take three weeks vacation, abandon BFD altogether, convert to something else and lose this frustration. I can't believe something so obviously poor ever gets past the QA process.

doublestrokeroll
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:45 am

Postby doublestrokeroll » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:16 am

So let me get this straight....you've been here since BFD1 and have had all kinds of problems and are always on the forums looking for "answers to problems" but you have TWO posts since 2005??? give me a break.

Obviously some people have had some troubles with some things but the majority here have seemed to be pretty happy with their experience so far and aren't complaining about the things you are.

BFD people won't say this but I will....


lol....I suspect you're a shill for another company....or just simply a loser. Either way I think your whole post is a bunch of garbage.

jackn2mpu
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: Sopranos State (NJ)

Postby jackn2mpu » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:28 am

doublestrokeroll wrote:So let me get this straight....you've been here since BFD1 and have had all kinds of problems and are always on the forums looking for "answers to problems" but you have TWO posts since 2005??? give me a break.

Obviously some people have had some troubles with some things but the majority here have seemed to be pretty happy with their experience so far and aren't complaining about the things you are.

BFD people won't say this but I will....


lol....I suspect you're a shill for another company....or just simply a loser. Either way I think your whole post is a bunch of garbage.
I happen to think otherwise. People can spend time on forums looking for answers and get them without posting, especially if the answer they want has already been given. Why ask the same question over and over and over? It's called forum search or Google search. There are a lot of problems I have with PT that are already answered on the DUC and I don't post in those threads but I do spend a lot of time there helping people with their problems.

To the op:
Have you tried either Blue Cat Audio MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11? Inexpensive and works really well hosting the vst version of BFD. They have demos of the product you can give a try; they just go silent every few minutes for a short period of time and come right back. A bit further up the price chain is Vienna Pro 5 (aka VEPro 5). This allows you to host plugins (fx and vi's) in PT you wouldn't normally to be able to do and will allow multiple audio outs back to PT which unfortunately MB7-2 won't do. I've been using MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11 and it's a savior.
Jack
Pro Tools 2019.6
2012 Mac Pro cheesegrater, 3.46 GHz hex core cpu, 48 gig ram, OSX 10.13.6
BFD 3 and plenty more

Qapla

doublestrokeroll
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:45 am

Postby doublestrokeroll » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:43 am

jackn2mpu wrote:
doublestrokeroll wrote:So let me get this straight....you've been here since BFD1 and have had all kinds of problems and are always on the forums looking for "answers to problems" but you have TWO posts since 2005??? give me a break.

Obviously some people have had some troubles with some things but the majority here have seemed to be pretty happy with their experience so far and aren't complaining about the things you are.

BFD people won't say this but I will....


lol....I suspect you're a shill for another company....or just simply a loser. Either way I think your whole post is a bunch of garbage.
I happen to think otherwise. People can spend time on forums looking for answers and get them without posting, especially if the answer they want has already been given. Why ask the same question over and over and over? It's called forum search or Google search. There are a lot of problems I have with PT that are already answered on the DUC and I don't post in those threads but I do spend a lot of time there helping people with their problems.

To the op:
Have you tried either Blue Cat Audio MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11? Inexpensive and works really well hosting the vst version of BFD. They have demos of the product you can give a try; they just go silent every few minutes for a short period of time and come right back. A bit further up the price chain is Vienna Pro 5 (aka VEPro 5). This allows you to host plugins (fx and vi's) in PT you wouldn't normally to be able to do and will allow multiple audio outs back to PT which unfortunately MB7-2 won't do. I've been using MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11 and it's a savior.


looks like a troll rant to me. Nothing addressed in a respectful manner. Just mud slinging. Either the guy never learned any manners or respect...or as I said he's a shill. Simple modern marketing 101. Most companies/ad agencies have shills these days on places like this promoting product as "customers" or dissing product on rival's boards.

jackn2mpu
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: Sopranos State (NJ)

Postby jackn2mpu » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:56 am

doublestrokeroll wrote:
jackn2mpu wrote:
doublestrokeroll wrote:So let me get this straight....you've been here since BFD1 and have had all kinds of problems and are always on the forums looking for "answers to problems" but you have TWO posts since 2005??? give me a break.

Obviously some people have had some troubles with some things but the majority here have seemed to be pretty happy with their experience so far and aren't complaining about the things you are.

BFD people won't say this but I will....


lol....I suspect you're a shill for another company....or just simply a loser. Either way I think your whole post is a bunch of garbage.
I happen to think otherwise. People can spend time on forums looking for answers and get them without posting, especially if the answer they want has already been given. Why ask the same question over and over and over? It's called forum search or Google search. There are a lot of problems I have with PT that are already answered on the DUC and I don't post in those threads but I do spend a lot of time there helping people with their problems.

To the op:
Have you tried either Blue Cat Audio MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11? Inexpensive and works really well hosting the vst version of BFD. They have demos of the product you can give a try; they just go silent every few minutes for a short period of time and come right back. A bit further up the price chain is Vienna Pro 5 (aka VEPro 5). This allows you to host plugins (fx and vi's) in PT you wouldn't normally to be able to do and will allow multiple audio outs back to PT which unfortunately MB7-2 won't do. I've been using MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11 and it's a savior.


looks like a troll rant to me. Nothing addressed in a respectful manner. Just mud slinging. Either the guy never learned any manners or respect...or as I said he's a shill. Simple modern marketing 101. Most companies/ad agencies have shills these days on places like this promoting product as "customers" or dissing product on rival's boards.
So someone comes on and is 'mud-slinging' according to you? And that makes it a troll rant? Not necessarily. Just because he doesn't drink the BFD3 koolaid doesn't make him a bad person. He didn't come on and just say that BFD3 sucks - he just stated an honest, reasoned outlook on what he experienced. I found it perfectly respectful - no foul language used.

And you're wrong about 'most companies having shills' doing this, that and the other and a rival's boards. There are just a couple of bad apples in the travel industry that were doing this.
Jack
Pro Tools 2019.6
2012 Mac Pro cheesegrater, 3.46 GHz hex core cpu, 48 gig ram, OSX 10.13.6
BFD 3 and plenty more

Qapla

doublestrokeroll
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:45 am

Postby doublestrokeroll » Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:06 pm

jackn2mpu wrote:
doublestrokeroll wrote:
jackn2mpu wrote:
doublestrokeroll wrote:So let me get this straight....you've been here since BFD1 and have had all kinds of problems and are always on the forums looking for "answers to problems" but you have TWO posts since 2005??? give me a break.

Obviously some people have had some troubles with some things but the majority here have seemed to be pretty happy with their experience so far and aren't complaining about the things you are.

BFD people won't say this but I will....


lol....I suspect you're a shill for another company....or just simply a loser. Either way I think your whole post is a bunch of garbage.
I happen to think otherwise. People can spend time on forums looking for answers and get them without posting, especially if the answer they want has already been given. Why ask the same question over and over and over? It's called forum search or Google search. There are a lot of problems I have with PT that are already answered on the DUC and I don't post in those threads but I do spend a lot of time there helping people with their problems.

To the op:
Have you tried either Blue Cat Audio MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11? Inexpensive and works really well hosting the vst version of BFD. They have demos of the product you can give a try; they just go silent every few minutes for a short period of time and come right back. A bit further up the price chain is Vienna Pro 5 (aka VEPro 5). This allows you to host plugins (fx and vi's) in PT you wouldn't normally to be able to do and will allow multiple audio outs back to PT which unfortunately MB7-2 won't do. I've been using MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11 and it's a savior.


looks like a troll rant to me. Nothing addressed in a respectful manner. Just mud slinging. Either the guy never learned any manners or respect...or as I said he's a shill. Simple modern marketing 101. Most companies/ad agencies have shills these days on places like this promoting product as "customers" or dissing product on rival's boards.
So someone comes on and is 'mud-slinging' according to you? And that makes it a troll rant? Not necessarily. Just because he doesn't drink the BFD3 koolaid doesn't make him a bad person. He didn't come on and just say that BFD3 sucks - he just stated an honest, reasoned outlook on what he experienced. I found it perfectly respectful - no foul language used.

And you're wrong about 'most companies having shills' doing this, that and the other and a rival's boards. There are just a couple of bad apples in the travel industry that were doing this.


lol...ok....whatever....

why am I not surprised it's you defending this...whoever....

jackn2mpu
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: Sopranos State (NJ)

Postby jackn2mpu » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:27 pm

doublestrokeroll wrote:
jackn2mpu wrote:
doublestrokeroll wrote:
jackn2mpu wrote:
doublestrokeroll wrote:So let me get this straight....you've been here since BFD1 and have had all kinds of problems and are always on the forums looking for "answers to problems" but you have TWO posts since 2005??? give me a break.

Obviously some people have had some troubles with some things but the majority here have seemed to be pretty happy with their experience so far and aren't complaining about the things you are.

BFD people won't say this but I will....


lol....I suspect you're a shill for another company....or just simply a loser. Either way I think your whole post is a bunch of garbage.
I happen to think otherwise. People can spend time on forums looking for answers and get them without posting, especially if the answer they want has already been given. Why ask the same question over and over and over? It's called forum search or Google search. There are a lot of problems I have with PT that are already answered on the DUC and I don't post in those threads but I do spend a lot of time there helping people with their problems.

To the op:
Have you tried either Blue Cat Audio MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11? Inexpensive and works really well hosting the vst version of BFD. They have demos of the product you can give a try; they just go silent every few minutes for a short period of time and come right back. A bit further up the price chain is Vienna Pro 5 (aka VEPro 5). This allows you to host plugins (fx and vi's) in PT you wouldn't normally to be able to do and will allow multiple audio outs back to PT which unfortunately MB7-2 won't do. I've been using MB7-2 to host BFD2 in PT11 and it's a savior.


looks like a troll rant to me. Nothing addressed in a respectful manner. Just mud slinging. Either the guy never learned any manners or respect...or as I said he's a shill. Simple modern marketing 101. Most companies/ad agencies have shills these days on places like this promoting product as "customers" or dissing product on rival's boards.
So someone comes on and is 'mud-slinging' according to you? And that makes it a troll rant? Not necessarily. Just because he doesn't drink the BFD3 koolaid doesn't make him a bad person. He didn't come on and just say that BFD3 sucks - he just stated an honest, reasoned outlook on what he experienced. I found it perfectly respectful - no foul language used.

And you're wrong about 'most companies having shills' doing this, that and the other and a rival's boards. There are just a couple of bad apples in the travel industry that were doing this.


lol...ok....whatever....

why am I not surprised it's you defending this...whoever....
I simply believe everyone has a right to express his or her opinion and to try and shut that person down because someone thinks the op is a troll then that's what I have an issue with.
Jack
Pro Tools 2019.6
2012 Mac Pro cheesegrater, 3.46 GHz hex core cpu, 48 gig ram, OSX 10.13.6
BFD 3 and plenty more

Qapla

daleBFD
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:15 am

Postby daleBFD » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:53 pm

Thank you Jack for taking my post as it was intended. I have indeed found answers to problems since the early days on the forums, google, from FX technical support directly and also what I figured out myself.

I am not a plant from another company. I've not tried another virtual drum tool actually, but I keep an eye on them to compare features.

Currently I am in talks with tech support to solve my issues. So far the only thing I've found out is:

- My BFD3 Core Library doubled in size to 100Gb during the installation process. There were no duplicate install processes and there are no duplicate files on the disk.
- BFD3 does not load up any BFD2 kits except the DW kit
- BFD3 kits work fine, as do the BFD v1 kits
- Most of the grooves work, some just don't but many are depending on the kit that is loaded
- The digital distortion and double-hit echo on each drum I had from the first installation fixed itself when I rescanned all content paths, which makes no sense to me

And I'd re-iterate that since I upgraded to BFD3 I've not really been able to use it - spending my time going back and forth with tech support collecting data, trying things out and reporting back the results, dealing with basic bugs and things that just don't work out-of-the-box.

BFD2 however works great still - just not in PT11. Thank you Jack for the product suggestion. I will give that a try.

The point to my original post was this. How do these issues get past Quality Assurance time and time again? The software engine is fantastic and the samples outstanding, but the software itself leaves a lot to be desired and I don't expect to spend my time continually debugging problems that should never have surfaced to the end user.

Take that how you like.

jackn2mpu
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: Sopranos State (NJ)

Postby jackn2mpu » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:34 am

daleBFD wrote:Thank you Jack for taking my post as it was intended. I have indeed found answers to problems since the early days on the forums, google, from FX technical support directly and also what I figured out myself.

I am not a plant from another company. I've not tried another virtual drum tool actually, but I keep an eye on them to compare features.

Currently I am in talks with tech support to solve my issues. So far the only thing I've found out is:

- My BFD3 Core Library doubled in size to 100Gb during the installation process. There were no duplicate install processes and there are no duplicate files on the disk.
- BFD3 does not load up any BFD2 kits except the DW kit
- BFD3 kits work fine, as do the BFD v1 kits
- Most of the grooves work, some just don't but many are depending on the kit that is loaded
- The digital distortion and double-hit echo on each drum I had from the first installation fixed itself when I rescanned all content paths, which makes no sense to me

And I'd re-iterate that since I upgraded to BFD3 I've not really been able to use it - spending my time going back and forth with tech support collecting data, trying things out and reporting back the results, dealing with basic bugs and things that just don't work out-of-the-box.

BFD2 however works great still - just not in PT11. Thank you Jack for the product suggestion. I will give that a try.

The point to my original post was this. How do these issues get past Quality Assurance time and time again? The software engine is fantastic and the samples outstanding, but the software itself leaves a lot to be desired and I don't expect to spend my time continually debugging problems that should never have surfaced to the end user.

Take that how you like.
No problem - you had a valid viewpoint and set of problems that needs to be listened to and addressed.

It's not just internal QA but the long beta test BFD3 went through with end users that makes me wonder how things ever got this bad. I mean I know all software has bugs but still.......

When you say BFD3 won't load up BFD2 kits except for the DW kit - are you referring to the Neil Peart BFD kit or another? That is a big one in my work.
Jack
Pro Tools 2019.6
2012 Mac Pro cheesegrater, 3.46 GHz hex core cpu, 48 gig ram, OSX 10.13.6
BFD 3 and plenty more

Qapla

daleBFD
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:15 am

Postby daleBFD » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:58 pm

When I view available kits and click the Library button to see what is available, I have all my BFD v1 kits, all the BFD3 kits and only 1 BFD2 kit available. The BFD2 kit pieces are all in my content paths but for some reason BFD3 just won't make them available as kit options for me to load.

That means all the Bonzo kits are unavailable, as are all the Jazz Brush kits I purchased as a BFD2 add on. Basically none of the standard BFD2 kits or any add-on pack shows up as an option in BFD3. All the BFD2 grooves show up, but only the kit named 'DW' is available under the BFD2 library.

Cheers.

guitardom
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 2:35 am

Postby guitardom » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:28 am

daleBFD wrote:When I view available kits and click the Library button to see what is available, I have all my BFD v1 kits, all the BFD3 kits and only 1 BFD2 kit available. The BFD2 kit pieces are all in my content paths but for some reason BFD3 just won't make them available as kit options for me to load.

That means all the Bonzo kits are unavailable, as are all the Jazz Brush kits I purchased as a BFD2 add on. Basically none of the standard BFD2 kits or any add-on pack shows up as an option in BFD3. All the BFD2 grooves show up, but only the kit named 'DW' is available under the BFD2 library.

Cheers.

It would take about a minute to manually import them or guide the file manager to them and pull them in.

daleBFD
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:15 am

Postby daleBFD » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:23 am

And finally, after much back and forth with the tech support team, who have been patiently trying to figure things out, I managed to get my BFD2 RealJazz kits loaded after re-installing, trashing all traces and messing around with the content paths for about 2 hours (defining, removing and re-defining). No digital distortion or strange echos anymore - they rectified themselves by re-configuring the app (which points to a problem in the engine imho).

Then I figured out the Content Location algorithm does not include a recursive directory search, so just pointing to the parent BFD2/Grooves folder was not enough - I had to manually include about 25 sub-directories containing groove files to the location one-by-one for them to now show up in the library. That is a complete waste of time.

I also see the File and Tools menu disappearing in the UI when the lose focus. Click away and come back and they appear again. Having coded up commercial UIs in C, C# and Java I know what makes these things tick; it's another bug.

So after all this time I'm about to the point where I can actually use the upgrade I paid for, and I re-iterate the original post.

Why do I spend so much time messing around with the software rather than just using it?

Because it's buggy and the QA process is lacking a lot of user scenarios.

kafka
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:47 pm

Postby kafka » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:23 am

daleBFD wrote:Because it's buggy and the QA process is lacking a lot of user scenarios.


What are the user scenarios that are at play here? Personally, I haven't run into any of these issues on either of two different platforms.

Fenderchris
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:16 pm

Postby Fenderchris » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:46 am

daleBFD wrote:Then I figured out the Content Location algorithm does not include a recursive directory search, so just pointing to the parent BFD2/Grooves folder was not enough - I had to manually include about 25 sub-directories containing groove files to the location one-by-one for them to now show up in the library. That is a complete waste of time.



There is one of the user scenarios right there.

This should have been thought about and taken care of in the coding. Fixing this might be the answer to many of the issues relating to loading BFD2 stuff into BFD3.
Nuendo 8.1.10 64-bit and Nuendo 10.2.0 64-bit, Windows-10 64-bit, i7 Quad core 2.67Ghz, 24GB Ram, Roland V-Drum TD-20X, BFD2 64-bit, BFD3 64-bit.
RME UFX

jackn2mpu
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:49 pm
Location: Sopranos State (NJ)

Postby jackn2mpu » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:30 pm

daleBFD wrote:And finally, after much back and forth with the tech support team, who have been patiently trying to figure things out, I managed to get my BFD2 RealJazz kits loaded after re-installing, trashing all traces and messing around with the content paths for about 2 hours (defining, removing and re-defining). No digital distortion or strange echos anymore - they rectified themselves by re-configuring the app (which points to a problem in the engine imho).

Then I figured out the Content Location algorithm does not include a recursive directory search, so just pointing to the parent BFD2/Grooves folder was not enough - I had to manually include about 25 sub-directories containing groove files to the location one-by-one for them to now show up in the library. That is a complete waste of time.

I also see the File and Tools menu disappearing in the UI when the lose focus. Click away and come back and they appear again. Having coded up commercial UIs in C, C# and Java I know what makes these things tick; it's another bug.

So after all this time I'm about to the point where I can actually use the upgrade I paid for, and I re-iterate the original post.

Why do I spend so much time messing around with the software rather than just using it?

Because it's buggy and the QA process is lacking a lot of user scenarios.
When you say you had to re-configure the app - what exactly did you do? Custom coding or what?

Let me understand - you had to add like 25 entries (I'm guessing that's one for each type of groove) for Content Location to work? That's insane. I don't think you posted what operating system you're running but I wonder if the content location search algorithm is depending on some kind of os indexing program? You know - the type most serious daw users turn off because it interferes with having seamless audio even on fast machines?

I'd like to propose something that would help those who hate the gui - could you work up as a third party something that would make the gui more palatable?
Jack
Pro Tools 2019.6
2012 Mac Pro cheesegrater, 3.46 GHz hex core cpu, 48 gig ram, OSX 10.13.6
BFD 3 and plenty more

Qapla


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