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mandren
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:58 pm

Postby mandren » Fri May 18, 2012 8:27 pm

rak wrote:Hi,
I hope I don't step on anyone's toes but I'm a bit confused about its dynamics, liveliness and expressivness.

I feel a bit akward posting this here since Platinum Samples are very nice and helpful and present on this forum but does anyone maybe feel the same about the 125th Anniversary Limited Edition Rock Legend Gretsch kit?

Let's take the snare (not the ECO one) as an example where it is most striking to me: it sounds quite sterile and undynamic and not really lively to my ears when hitting it with velocities between 115 to 128 (keyboards here). No real slight sound variations that make it sound real when playing classic rock drums (120 bpm, snare on beat 2 and 4: so nothing to do with fast triggering).

(Much the same is true for how I feel about the hihat and to some degree about the toms in this pack.)
But my main concern is the snare

My point is:
I have many other expansion packs such as the Signature Packs 1 and 2, Modern Drummer Snare Drum Selects, Sleishman, Maple, Oak... and even with those stock kitpieces: in most cases I don't get this unrealistic behaviour, 'no slight variation' feeling (using the same snare mixer settings or playing completely dry and unprocessed)

Before my purchase I listened to the demo and was thinking: Hmmm.... sounds sterile, not like a real drum recording and like maybe only a fews layers are involved here... but also: maybe this has to do with the soundquality of compressed audio on the internet.
But then I came to the same result after installing them (full install/all layers).

It's my first Platinum expansion and I bought it because I read Platinum libraries have a huge amount of layers and then generally all the praise for their other offerings.

No offense ment to Platinum Samples but I have to ask this question fellow BFD users.
Thanks for sharing your experiences - positiv and maybe even negativ - as regards its liveliness and expressivness.

Regards,Rak


I'm surprised about your complaints and issues...especially since you're playing this on keyboard. I'm feeling the opposite. The snare and hihat are really great. As a drummer who plays these samples with an edrum kit I must say that this is the best expansion I've played for BFD2. Is it just velocities between 115 to 128 you're experiencing this? For me the dynamics and performance is better than any earlier expansion for BFD2. I also own the Signature Packs, Sleishman etc and they don't even come close to The Rock Legends expansions performance. And I mean not even close. To compare it to the stock BFD kit pieces is an abomination. I'm very sensitive to lack of dynamics or MG issues and as I said earlier this is the best expansion so far for BFD2.

You must have something set up the wrong way. I hope you can sort it out somehow because this should be your best samples :)

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Postby rak » Sat May 19, 2012 12:54 pm

Platinum Samples wrote:Hmm.... our beta testers felt this was the best playing kit ever made for BFD... What are your engine settings?

For independent reviews:

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php? ... D2-and-Eco

Rail


Hi Rail,

thanks for asking.

streaming engine: 128 velocity layers / also tested: 256 layers -> enginge restarted-> kit reloaded
everything else in streaming engine section unticked (i.e. no 16 bits,...)
max. 64 voices
details section: all details to high

And thanks for the link:
Without a doubt only very happy user posts that sound really most satisfied.
That's why I'm very confused about how I should feel about my opinion on these drums so far....so many positive reviews elsewhere.

I will continue taking my time with this kit trying to find out how to make it sound inspiring and lively to my ears as well...

regards,Rak

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Postby rak » Sat May 19, 2012 1:36 pm

mandren wrote:
rak wrote:Hi,
I hope I don't step on anyone's toes but I'm a bit confused about its dynamics, liveliness and expressivness.

I feel a bit akward posting this here since Platinum Samples are very nice and helpful and present on this forum but does anyone maybe feel the same about the 125th Anniversary Limited Edition Rock Legend Gretsch kit?

Let's take the snare (not the ECO one) as an example where it is most striking to me: it sounds quite sterile and undynamic and not really lively to my ears when hitting it with velocities between 115 to 128 (keyboards here). No real slight sound variations that make it sound real when playing classic rock drums (120 bpm, snare on beat 2 and 4: so nothing to do with fast triggering).

(Much the same is true for how I feel about the hihat and to some degree about the toms in this pack.)
But my main concern is the snare

My point is:
I have many other expansion packs such as the Signature Packs 1 and 2, Modern Drummer Snare Drum Selects, Sleishman, Maple, Oak... and even with those stock kitpieces: in most cases I don't get this unrealistic behaviour, 'no slight variation' feeling (using the same snare mixer settings or playing completely dry and unprocessed)

Before my purchase I listened to the demo and was thinking: Hmmm.... sounds sterile, not like a real drum recording and like maybe only a fews layers are involved here... but also: maybe this has to do with the soundquality of compressed audio on the internet.
But then I came to the same result after installing them (full install/all layers).

It's my first Platinum expansion and I bought it because I read Platinum libraries have a huge amount of layers and then generally all the praise for their other offerings.

No offense ment to Platinum Samples but I have to ask this question fellow BFD users.
Thanks for sharing your experiences - positiv and maybe even negativ - as regards its liveliness and expressivness.

Regards,Rak


I'm surprised about your complaints and issues...especially since you're playing this on keyboard. I'm feeling the opposite. The snare and hihat are really great. As a drummer who plays these samples with an edrum kit I must say that this is the best expansion I've played for BFD2. Is it just velocities between 115 to 128 you're experiencing this? For me the dynamics and performance is better than any earlier expansion for BFD2. I also own the Signature Packs, Sleishman etc and they don't even come close to The Rock Legends expansions performance. And I mean not even close. To compare it to the stock BFD kit pieces is an abomination. I'm very sensitive to lack of dynamics or MG issues and as I said earlier this is the best expansion so far for BFD2.

You must have something set up the wrong way. I hope you can sort it out somehow because this should be your best samples :)


Hi,
thanks for chiming in.
As I said I'm surprised myself ....since you and actually all other reviews are so positive.
Since you have the Signature Packs too I take your assessment very serious and question my findings.

Though sonically a very different snare I have had the impression that for example a Chamberlin Stick On Snare sounds delivers more realistic sounding changes as regards sound/dynamics/resonance within a snare articulation (hit and half) with changing velocities.
The Gretsch in comparision makes me feel like the snare just changes sonically in that it gets louder when hit harder. And it also feels to me like its dynamics are generally more compressed and some attack/transients flattened.
As I wrote: playing on the keyboard.
Does it make sense to you what I'm saying or is it really just my ears : -) ?

I'd better perform a reinstall just to make sure I'm not actually suffering from a buggy installation where something went wrong somehow.
But maybe it is just that I'll have to or should change my approach of playing this expansion and I need to look into using those snare articulations differently than like I've done up to now with other snares.

regards,Rak

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Modern Drummer Gretsch Snare On followed by Legend Gretsch Snare followed by a Signature Pack YS2 Chamberlin Stick On

Postby rak » Sat May 19, 2012 3:20 pm

Sample attached

Maybe a short recording/comparison might be helpful:
To find out if I'm mistaken with my assessment/feeling I recorded a sloppy, random midi take :
4 times articulation 'snare hit' followed by articulation 4 times 'snare half'(velocities going from approximately 70 to 127)

and played it back with:

first a Modern Drummer Gretsch Snare On followed
secondly by that Legend Gretsch Snare and then
thirdly, followed by a Signature Pack YS2 Chamberlin StickSnare On.

Bfd Mixer was reset to dry/uncompressed and Kit piece to default.

Each snare recording was normalized to 50% so that they have the same level. Then bounced them to one 16bit/44100 stereo wave file.

I hope I'm not being unfair in my personal overall impression that liveliness of Legend Gretsch seems less compared to the other two snares.

But maybe I'm wrong and it is simply a matter of taste or things are sounding as they should and I can't hear what is already there.

regards,rak
Attachments
ModernDrummerGretsch then LegendGretsch then YS2Chamberlin.zip
(1.08 MiB) Downloaded 772 times

Platinum Samples
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Postby Platinum Samples » Sat May 19, 2012 4:58 pm

Please post your MIDI and the 2 presets you're using.

Thanks,

Rail
Image

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Postby rak » Sat May 19, 2012 5:12 pm

Platinum Samples wrote:Please post your MIDI and the 2 presets you're using.

Thanks,

Rail


Hi Rail,

I just did this quick and dirty for a brief demonstration and then threw it away... sorry.
I'll do it again then tomorrow : -)


What do you mean by 2 presets? I took one preset and loaded the mixer preset (uncompressed/dry which also sets the ambience channels down to non audible ) and swapped the snares.
next the kit piece snare was set no damping and no pitch.

regards,Rak

Platinum Samples
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Postby Platinum Samples » Sat May 19, 2012 5:21 pm

The Modern Drummer preset and the Rock Legends preset... for us to duplicate what you're hearing I need to have the same settings & mixer balances in my BFD2.

Rock Legends, being a quickPack, was recorded to fit inside a track with minimal additional processing.

Thanks,

Rail
Image

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Postby rak » Sat May 19, 2012 6:00 pm

Platinum Samples wrote:The Modern Drummer preset and the Rock Legends preset... for us to duplicate what you're hearing I need to have the same settings & mixer balances in my BFD2.

Rock Legends, being a quickPack, was recorded to fit inside a track with minimal additional processing.

Thanks,

Rail


As I stated there were no two presets used but one where I swapped just the snare...
I will send that preset tomorrow.

regards,Rak

Platinum Samples
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Contact:

Postby Platinum Samples » Sat May 19, 2012 6:50 pm

Here's a quick video showing the 2 snares in BFD2...

http://screencast.com/t/2N7KRQ1Vby

One thing we do look for in our professional drummers we hire for the tracking dates is consistency... The last thing you want when hiring a drummer is someone who can't hit the drum consistently... which is the main reason most engineers end up having to add a sample to their drum tracks. So our hits are very consistent but every hit is different. You can look in your Rock Legends\Snare\Hit folder and see the different WAV files.

Cheers,

Rail
Image

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Postby rak » Sun May 20, 2012 1:37 pm

Platinum Samples wrote:Here's a quick video showing the 2 snares in BFD2...

http://screencast.com/t/2N7KRQ1Vby

...Cheers,Rail



Platinum Samples wrote:...
Rock Legends, being a quickPack, was recorded to fit inside a track with minimal additional processing.

Thanks,Rail


Thanks a lot for the video (which is very similar to how I had done mine: just swapping those snare (not presets) without pitch and damping , mixerpreset to dry uncompressed and no ambience channels!)
Now, in my opinion, your video and my audio demonstration show what I was describing.
To my ears the ModernDrummer Gretsch sounds quite more lively with seeminingly more untouched transients and natural dynamis and expressiveness and I think I do appreciate that as a basis to start my mixing and processing them to my requirements and taste.
Am I correct in my assumption that the Modern Drummer snare(s) were recorded with less compression/limiting/other processing or even almost 'raw'?

But:
'Rock Legends, being a quickPack, was recorded to fit inside a track with minimal additional processing. '

Reading this I feel this might actually be the explaination why I feel the way I do about the Legend Gretsch.
I wasn't really aware that this expansion was approached with this aim and e.g. the snare was subjected to compression (and eq-ing).
I revisited your product page and now noticed the brief mention of a Fairchild 670 limiter/compressor and Sontec Equalizers.
And I didn't now that Quickpack stands a bit for a preprocessed samples approach which others will welcome and describe as more immediately 'playable'.
I looked at the label Quickpack rather as an indication that it is about the focus on one drum kit : -)

Personally, I would have preferred it if the samples where rather uncompressed or as little as possible limited and then only your presets would deal with those ' finishing' touches, processing aspects.
It seems that the way the Legend snare was processed (even if it was a Fairchild) leaves quite a big fingerprint on the overall sound and how the transients are dealt with/contained.

Who knows: Do you happen to have the Legend Gretsch kit unprocessed as well on your storage or has the processing been done while recording those samples?
Would be an idea and really handy to have them unprocessed as a download as well : -)

As it appears I would have handled the compression/limiting (which impacts on all aspects of the snaresound and its dynamics) of the actual raw samples quite differently.

But others obviously like this Quickpack approach being immediately so 'playable'... so my way of working and preference seems to be different here.

Thanks again for the video and explanation.
And thanks for having this conversation.
regards,Rak
Last edited by rak on Sun May 20, 2012 4:18 pm, edited 13 times in total.

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Postby rak » Sun May 20, 2012 1:45 pm

Platinum Samples wrote:...
One thing we do look for in our professional drummers we hire for the tracking dates is consistency... The last thing you want when hiring a drummer is someone who can't hit the drum consistently... which is the main reason most engineers end up having to add a sample to their drum tracks. So our hits are very consistent but every hit is different. You can look in your Rock Legends\Snare\Hit folder and see the different WAV files.

Cheers,Rail

Hi,
my gutfeeling and thoughts on this aspect -and I would see that as a possible additional factor to the processing point above:

I had a look into the Legend Gretsch 'snare hit' folder and saw those impressive 124 samples for that articulation.
I played them back chronologically and must attribute that the drummer hit the same spot with great,great, great precision : -)

Where is the right ballance between consistency and human imprecision and resulting soundalterations for 124 layers for one articulation?

I would imagine one articulation with a reasonable amount of human inconcistencies of hitting the snare in the center might yield a richer, more realisitic overall listening experience.

Too consistent and precise (though different hits) to sound realistic for one articulation and its overall impression in the context of a song?

Here my thoughts:
If I hit the snare hit articulation with 105 and the following with 107 then I'd expect to hear apart from having hit it harder including those slight variation of resonance and texture also the human factor and those soundalteration that come from hitting the snare x cm more to the left or further up from the center sweetspot.

The dilemma is that we only have 3 articulations that have to deal with hitting the snare in a 'normal way': hit, half, rim (sidestick and others not being relevant here) . But these 3 articulations are too few and different in sound in my opinion to make for a natural alteration in sound when I want to reproduce a realistic picture of just hitting the snare approximately in the center.
I would therefore think that it would be helpful -as a sort of workaround- to have e.g. samples/layers 105, 106, 107 be minute but audible variations of hitting the snare in the centre within a certain radius for that one articulation.
Some snare articulations of some expansion packs achieve this goal better than others in my opinion.

So in nutshell, being too precise doing the sampling for one articulation when there are are only 3 articulations on the whole to cover the snare might also lead to a more sterile picture for the i.e. snare hit articulation.

Just thinking out loud about precision, consistency and imagining how too much might get in the way of a better, realistic overall impression.

regards,Rak

Platinum Samples
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Postby Platinum Samples » Sun May 20, 2012 4:00 pm

There is no compression on the kit except on the Mono Room (The Fairchild)... the kit has indeed been EQ'd.

You can check out the tacking notes for the Snare in these images:

https://www.platinumsamples.com/public/CWK-1.jpg
https://www.platinumsamples.com/public/CWK-2.jpg
https://www.platinumsamples.com/public/CWK-3.jpg

I've discussed this with John Emrich (who recorded the Modern Drummer snares) and this is his opinion:

"The difference I hear is the Remo coated CS black dot (bottom side) verses the coated ambassadors on the other two drums. That head allows less high overtones through than the Ambassador by design. They feel like they play the same. Your drum is also tuned with a lower tension. I do not hear any compression issues."

When I say our drummers play consistently... I don't mean they hit exactly the same spot on every hit (which would be impossible) but they do play within the sweet spot consistently. That spot is about 3 to 5 inches in diameter. The drum is of course very evenly tuned.

Cheers,

Rail
Image

rak
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Postby rak » Sun May 20, 2012 4:26 pm

Platinum Samples wrote:There is no compression on the kit except on the Mono Room (The Fairchild)... the kit has indeed been EQ'd.

You can check out the tacking notes for the Snare in these images:

https://www.platinumsamples.com/public/CWK-1.jpg
https://www.platinumsamples.com/public/CWK-2.jpg
https://www.platinumsamples.com/public/CWK-3.jpg

I've discussed this with John Emrich (who recorded the Modern Drummer snares) and this is his opinion:

"The difference I hear is the Remo coated CS black dot (bottom side) verses the coated ambassadors on the other two drums. That head allows less high overtones through than the Ambassador by design. They feel like they play the same. Your drum is also tuned with a lower tension. I do not hear any compression issues."

When I say our drummers play consistently... I don't mean they hit exactly the same spot on every hit (which would be impossible) but they do play within the sweet spot consistently. That spot is about 3 to 5 inches in diameter. The drum is of course very evenly tuned.

Cheers,

Rail


Thanks for all the information and explanations !!!!

Then that's exactly what this Gretsch kit and the way it was set up (Remo and lower tension) sounds like ...

Many thanks again!

regards,rak

elandrue
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:56 am

Andy Johns Classics

Postby elandrue » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:50 am

hello, I've noticed that al of the hi hats on my AJC are low on volume, everything else on the drum kit sounds good except for the hi hats. Could you tell me why or how to fix it?

Thanks Andy

Platinum Samples
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Re: Andy Johns Classics

Postby Platinum Samples » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:57 am

elandrue wrote:hello, I've noticed that al of the hi hats on my AJC are low on volume, everything else on the drum kit sounds good except for the hi hats. Could you tell me why or how to fix it?

Thanks Andy


AJC..??

You talking about the AFJ (Andy Johns Classic Drums)....?

If so, then you can delete the tweak files from the Hihat folders.

Cheers,

Rail
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